Stayne

TFL Admins and Fellow Clan Captains.

I pubbed with Nerf some time ago and had a pretty good time. Good enough that I actually remembered him. A month or so later I saw that |3eeR was trying to sponsor him. However, since BeeR didn’t have 10 matches in TFL, the sponsorship was denied.

Nerf came to me April 25th, asking about the possibility that Absolute Zero might sponsor him. I chatted with him for a while to get a feel for his personality and his intent. I explained to him that Absolute Zero was not simply a means for his probation, but that he would only be sponsored if he was to become a part of the team. He replied that he was looking for a team, and that he had every intention in contributing to Absolute Zero, not using it.

The next step was to get an even better feel for this repentant sinner. He was to come to our practices and match warm-ups every week (we have team events Sunday – Thursday) to prove that he was serious, dedicated, and could contribute to the team. He has been extremely active in these, even when required to sit out rounds. Most impressively, his personality has fit in very well with the team and it has been very easy to make friends with him.

As a team, we have had lengthy discussion about sponsoring a known hacker. The vote to sponsor him was certainly NOT unanimous. In fact, a lot of the team has reservations about bringing him. Basically, he has to earn our trust. Through my interactions with him, I trust that he will not hack again. But given that not everyone is convinced, he will have to continually prove himself. He is aware of this, and is willing to throw himself into the fire. I see that as more evidence that he is and will be a clean player.

Here is his statement:



In conclusion, I feel that Nerf has served his time and is now willing to put himself under constant scrutiny to get back into this great game. Please give careful consideration to granting him sponsorship.

MasterJeff

What was he banned for originally and when was he banned?

Stayne

Here is his ban information on the TFL site:
http://www.tfleague.com/banlist.php#ban28

He is on the roaster john list. He is logged as using it from April 2nd until April 7th, 2003. He was banned on April 29th, 2003.

That doesn't necessarily mean that he quit using the hack before finding out that it was logging. It looks like the bans started happening on April 10th. However, it is possible that he only used it those 4 days and quit on his own accord.

What does he say? He says he quit using it before finding out that it was logging. He didn't know it was a logging hack until after he got banned.

sponge

From the original thread:



That sums up my feelings quite nicely.

Further: He has had 2 or 3 chances to come clean, so why is he asking for probation now? Is it because he has realized he's not smart enough to alias and get away with it? Why does he offer so many excuses (5 in 2 sentences) as to why he hacked? He claims he wasn't thinking clearly, so was he not thinking clearly all that time he was lying to the clans in which he was aliasing? Does he even realize that aliasing is also an offense against the league? If so, why does he meekly try to excuse it?

What has he done that merits a legitimate return? Has he caught any hackers? Contributed anything to the community? Received any support from any admins? If he did do any of the above, would it even be motivated by actual remorse?

Absolutely not.

Stayne

Let me preface this post by saying that I am going about this as objectively as possible. I ask that you do the same.



There are two answers to this question.

First, who cares? No where in the probation documentation does it say that one must be motivated by remorse in order to apply.

Second, its pretty difficult, if not impossible, to determine what motivates any person's behavior. Why do we all play this game and take it so seriously? Is it because of the friends we have here? Is it because of the fast-paced, team-based nature of the game? Is it because no other game out there can compare to the specificity of skill required to play this game? Probabably all of the above and more.

If you were unable to play the game, but there was a process in place that would allow you to do so, would you not take advantage of that process? For what reasons? Probably for all of those that are listed above. People don't ask for sponsorship because they feel remorse. They ask for sponsorship because they want to legitimately play the game again, and this is the only process out there that allows that to happen. (In other words, let's not dabble in the unanswerable question of whether or not someone feels bad for what they did or feels bad b/c they got caught doing it.)

If you, sponge, or anyone else figures out a way to determine exactly what motivates human behavior, please let me know about it. After all, I am a PhD. student in experimental psychology and would love to know the method to answer one of the most perplexing problems in psychology. I'll even share authorship with you when I publish it.

schtoofa

Stayne: I think clan captains look for remorse when someone's applying for probation because remorse seems to add to the security feeling that a person won't cheat again. Just my guess

ktank

April 2003

Roaster John Update - [ Posted by: Azlan @ 4:10 PM EST ]
The TFL is in the process of reviewing the Roaster John list and taking appropriate action. We are still in the process of determining sanctions for the clans of the cheaters as well.

The following individuals are BANNED from TFL. If anyone wishes to appeal their ban, please contact me via e-mail for further information.

186 (Creeping Death, 118596)
Contusion (Texas Area Untouchables, 1085178)
Cyclone (609085)
General Murdah (2907765)
HiT (41931)
Rpgveg (Rabid, 310165)
Sui (Dark Omen, 605551)
The Dead (Texas Area Untouchables, 40079)
Curse (-V-, 70712)

The following players are on the STA banlist only and are under review for banning.

-|2-wizarD
-]fXp[- Titan
[FOoM]Sazinc
eF- NOFX
[NIL8]Energy
Renegade (5 vs 5)
[DoH]-MenDaxX (5 vs 5)

The following players are under review and will be either banned or put on the probation list:

Excalibur (Relentless Assault, 71187)
Ferratus (Uncontrollable Chaos, 78248)
Jebus (the Harbingers of Light, 629641)
Jester (46&2, 156090)
Nailed (Next to Nothing, 386273)
Whoa (Clockwork Orange, 174012)
YoinK1 (The Syndicate, 1188158)
Zoon (The Syndicate, 1153568)

The following players will be added to the probation list for having hacks on their machines. This list is not complete and will be updated pending further analysis of the Roaster John list:

Antichrist (uncontrollable Chaos, 100985)
Badboy (uncontrollable Chaos, 110004)
blz (Hard 2 Kill, 2781788)
Draft (Next to Nothing, 1256256)
Ugly_Jim (797054)
Lucky (1479887)
Manulis (Elite Half Life Competition, 79626)
Monkee (Shadows of the Night, 147839)
Reign (148709)
Sphere (Omnipotence, 2948765)
Studfire (Resurrection, 562542)
Uncle Leo (Seinfeld, 118467)
Zero (Shadows of the Night, 147261)

It should be noted, that if you are on this list, we will come knocking at your door very soon. You will need personal demos of matches you've played on the date's in question. If you can't produce them, then HLTV demos will have to suffice. If you can't produce those, you will be banned with action being taken against your clan


RpgVegeta aka NtN|}{azard banned - [ Posted by: Azlan @ 9:44 PM EST ]
While we were investigating each individual case, we stumbled upon RpgVegeta hiding out in NtN. Now that he is exposed and it's proved to be him, we are making an official statement regarding this.

RpgVegeta aka }{azard aka kodiak aka ActiveX is banned permanently from TFL for using Roaster John's in an official match.

Further investigation regarding NtN is still ongoing.

August 2003

Sunday August 10, 2003

1a Schedule Posted - [ Posted by: H-Town @ 7:36 PM EST ]
bM faces Vindicate in the finals. Should be a barnburner of a match!

Good luck guys!

Rpgveg banned again - [ Posted by: Pandelli @ 12:54 AM EST ]
Once again the banned player Rpgveg has tried to return to this league but has been caught, this time on DoA's roster. He is also on [a4h] roster which is a 5v5 team. Our banlist has been updated with his new WonID 4093782 and alias Indica.

http://www.tfleague.com/banlist.php#ban28
http://tracker.primetwo.com/index.p...93782&name=&ip=

Tuesday April 27, 2004

Ktank

Guess who? Its Rpgveg again!! - [ Posted by: Pandelli @ 12:08 AM EST ]
After multiple interviews and IP hunting, we have come to the conclusion that the player nerf is rpgveg. His SteamID (STEAM_0:0:7388 ) has been added to the ban list and removed from roster.

Monday January 17, 2005

g* removed - [ Posted by: Pandelli @ 9:21 PM EST ]
With much regret, TFL will be removing g* from the league due to their inability to keep banned players off of their roster.

November 25th, 2004: Rpgveg caught under alias on roster
December 30th, 2004: Cursa caught under alias on roster
January 8th, 2005: Lifedelinquent caught under alias on roster

Three times in three months shows me that g* is too much of a risk to have in this league.


The above is a copy and pasting of all the news post concerning RPGveg that I could find.

Ktank

Stayne

I agree Schtoofa. I'm just saying that there is no way to objectively say whether a person feels remorse or not, and if they do, for what do they feel it? All we have to go on is what they say, and you know as well as I do that what they say is not always true. I don't know if it is for that reason, but for whatever reason, feeling remorse is not part of the probation criteria, so I don't think it should be a factor here. I'm not saying he does or doesn't feel it. Honestly, I don't know. I know he misses the game and is willing to put himself under heavy scrutiny to be able to get back into legitamate league play.

I'm just asking people to try to give fair and objective consideration on this probation request. Things like whether or not he feels bad is not the issue at hand. He has met the requirements that have been set by this league and is asking if he could please be considered for probation.

On another note, if you want to ask him in person about how he feels or any other details, he idles in our channel and would be happy to answer them.

#absolutezero

(I appologize for being a bit overzealous on the objectivity bit. I'm just forwarding my feeling of how this program was written and is to be used. If I am mistaken, please set me straight.)

Stayne

thanks for all that info ktank. I've pretty much just gone off of the info that is available via the banlist page, which isn't much.

MasterJeff

As much as I disagree with life time bans, I can not support this probation request. He has aliased to many times with blatant disregard for his punishment. However, if 6 months from now he re-applies for probation and has not been found to be aliasing, cheating, ect. Then I would gladly support a probation request for him.

sponge

First, remorse is an indication of intent and intent is important, as it directly reflects how much weight is given to the player's statements. And the weight of what he has to say is in the documentation.




Are you more likely to approve someone who regrets their actions or someone who doesn't care? The answer is obvious and it helps explain how I interpret the rules page. Now, you can take a strict constructionist ("remorse is not specifically mentioned, therefore it is irrelevant") view of what the probation page says. But I don't and there's nothing that says that I have to. Just as there are different ways to interpret the Constitution, so too are there different ways to interpret the probation page. To be honest, I find expecting everyone to adopt the same point of view not very... what's the word I'm looking for? ... objective?

Second, the question was most definitely rhetorical, just like this one: how sincere can he be if he's had months, if not years, to make amends for what he's done, but instead he chooses to play goody-goody when he's requesting probation?



Prove it. Remember, it's pretty difficult, if not impossible, to determine what motivates any person's behavior.

I'd also like to point out that I'm objective in my criticism of rpg. I apply the same scrutiny to all probation requests - it's just that rpg doesn't meet my standards (which, as I pointed out above, can be different from yours) and I'm saying so. And for clarification, the "remorse issue" is not important in this case. I have not and will not approve of probation for anyone who has aliased while probation is an option to them. Much less someone who has aliased 3 times.

That being said, I don't see how I'm being subjective here.

Stayne

Good answer, sponge. Thanks for the clarification of your viewpoint. I now understand your reasons for denying sponsorship (i.e., aliasing while on probation).

DiME

I like nerf. Played with em many many times in the last couple months his attitude is way different now.His soldier is Legit and from i,ve seen his sportsmanship has been great.As for aliasing well I dont blame em.Its a fun game and if you guys were banned youd also alias (poor guys needs a life)
Nerf gets my vote
We need to get some players back up in the ladders as much as possible imo.
and with turning in demos to admin how can we go wrong.

skull^

I would'nt alias, much less use a cheat. Good argument, try again.....

[Rabid]KeViN

I could of sworn he just asked for probation status from another clan, and every captain already voiced their opinion on this guy !!

http://forums.tfleague.com/showthread.php?t=7388

He cheated when he was in rabid, and I know about his extensive abuse of alias'ing.. I still say no.

Stayne

Yes, Kev... he did. That is in the statement, actually, so you don't have to go from memory.



Thanks to all those posting thier reasoning on the decisions.

M|sF|t

I am compelled to say no only due to the number of times he alaised.

Had he not done that he sounds like a perfect candidate, i.e. he has worked with his host clan to show them his true intentions over the past month or so and they feel confident enough to put thier good name at stake for him. Good luck Stayne we go way back and I hope this works out for you guys at some point.

headshot1485

I've never voted to allow anyone into probation, and it's not changing here.

rimuladas

No thank you.